RL has kept me busy these last few days, and between that and the mad rush to finish the edits on the last episode of The Adjusters from Wednesday, I haven't had much time to think about a post for tonight.
So instead of coming up with something half-assed (as opposed to the thoughtful and carefully crafted posts that make up my usual output -- Ah, thanks for noticing!), let me just point you to a story that I ran into a couple of weeks back, and hits on some interesting points in an interesting way.
The story is The Gift, by Bluefox07: "Two guys foolishly abuse a mysterious power."
It's an old idea, really: pick two guys, give them this incredible power for seven days, and see what happens, who does what with what they have been given. It's actually fairly well done, for such a clichéd premise. And it's a strange thing too: there's a lot of sex, there's also a lot of plot, and after a while, you kind of end up reading it for the plot and to see what happens, as opposed to the sex. At least, that's what it did for me. (Funny, that reminds me of some of the best work by Al Steiner, which has that effect on me as well. I should write a post about his work soon.) But then again, some of the sex scenes are delightfully perverse. The stuff with Jesse's mother, there at the end, man -- twisted.
Anyways, have a read, and with some luck, you'll enjoy it. Meanwhile, I'll go nap a bit.
Just read #14, some thoughts:
ReplyDeleteFirst, love the writing of Jenn as sexpot. Seeing her as a totally confident sexual creature, almost a sexual weapon is very hot. (Though I would definitely prefer to see Daniel in control of her, of course)
Some issues:
I feel like you are falling into the trap of "things happening because the plot demands"
Daniel being passive, 2 weeks passing (even 1 is too long, it should be 3-4 days for a young
woman on a campus), Daniel not having his cell phone on, the PI getting caught...it's starting to
really add up. It's not feeling tightly plotted/believable, in my opinion.
Which feeds into the next problem:
I'd guess you came up with this plot first and backfilled the MD one. This leads
to a major issue in my eyes. Daniel and the rest JUST saw what happened with MD,
and now something VERY similar is happening to Jenn. He saw MD on stage,
apparently totally into performing and saw the same with Jenn on the DVD.
He should immediately make that connection - it shouldn't be "is she really
doing this" but "this is just like what happened before" That's not even including
the party and all the other weird stuff. I'm not sure how you fix it to be honest,
since it's quite fundamental. Making Daniel much more urgent is a start, since
he known how MD ended up.
You mentioned Daniel needs to prove himself, but that rings hollow. Going back to
"things only happening because of the plot" - that really feels like what's happening
with Daniel's reactions. He's not acting like the character you developed in book 1,
he feels hamstrung for plot reasons. It feels like it's not his fault, for lack of a better
way to put it. For example, if Daniel were to believe for a second Jenn is giving the ring
back of her own according, I'd be very tempted to stop reading as that would be
jumping the shark, as it were.
On pacing: I can see how people would see it as filler, but I think it works here.
However, you've now spent 4 chapters setting things up; it's time to start resolving stuff,
I think. Having Jenn, Serena, etc still be DIK girls 5 chapters from now is really way too long.
You should probably do that illustration within a chapter or 2. Going on your past output, I'd
even suggest trying to wrap this book up by chapter 20 or so. I just think it will feel
artificially extended otherwise; you can always subsume parts into others.
Lastly to put an idea in your head. Remember that what's happening to Jenn is really quite cruel.
When she gets her mind back and if she has her memories she's going to be in a very
nasty place. She's a character you like; treat her kindly.
For me, personally, having her be gangraped or even controlled by Biff for too much longer
would be a large turn off. I do love her transformed into a sexual dynamo (and would
love to see how Daniel and Serena respond to that) - but keep her mental state after this is over in mind.
Sorry for the wordiness, and I really don't mean for this to be bashing in any way.
Just stuff that jumps out (and plot-mandated actions by characters is my #1
writing pet peeve).
wow Jenn as a sexual dynamo- with Daniel and Serena...just picturing the previous scene in Book 1 when they are watching tv. jenn gave daniel a BJ and Serena was watching....now thinking it one step further with both controlled by Daniel. Hot stuff it could be.
ReplyDeleteThere are some good arguments onceagain and I have to agree that with our current knowledge Daniel's behaviour seems to be quite our of character. I made that point earlier before, too.
ReplyDeleteI speculated then that Daniel might be already adjusted, either by Biff and crew which would make Biff's tauntings so much more cruel since he knows Daniel can't help himself, or he got adjusted earlier in his life by that company the good docter escaped from.
The adjustment might include some 'ignore'- routine so he can't figure out people that are adjusted around him.
This is the only explanation that comes to my mind which would explain Daniel's passivity and wimpy'ness.
And last but not least, I wholeheartly agree with you two about the Jenn situation. Jenn being Daniel's again retaining her new personality would be the icing on the cake. Seeing her like that with Biff is a guilty pleasure for me. :)
@onceagain - glad to see you back. Did you ever get my response to your email?
ReplyDeleteI hereby dub you critic-in-residence for this blog. Use your power wisely :)
Let me address some of your issues. As far as Daniel is concerned, he has no idea what was going on with Marjorie. She was acting odd, Serena was investigating, it seemed to involved DIK, but also the NADA folks, and then she had this weird seizure and then she's gone and Serena tells him that Marjorie had a breakdown and is resting away from stress. He doesn't know that's she braindead in some random part of the world. There's this business about the bracelets, which no one really understands it seems. So he doesn't know an awful lot. Okay, Jenn's acting completely out of character. Check. What do you do about it? Once you recover from the shock, you go look for her.
Daniel passive -- more on that below. 2 (or 1) week passing and no police involvement -- yeah, weird isn't it? Wonder what's going on there? PI getting caught -- not overly surprising because frankly he was pretty sloppy and Jenn's anything but stupid and clearly she spotted him. Daniel with his phone off? Ouch, guilty as charged. That was heavy handed. Ah well.
"Daniel needs to prove himself": let me clarify. He needs to grow and get over his main flaw, if you want to talk cinematically. "He's not acting like the character you developed in book 1, he feels hamstrung for plot reasons." What is the character that was developed in book I? I have my character profile for Daniel here, the psych part, not the backstory: Daniel's smart, stable, well-grounded, fundamentally happy, but hasn't been really tested by life yet. He's happy to be passive (not a doormat, just doesn't care about being a leader), and when confronted he does not react aggressively but avoids confrontation and just goes with the flow until he's had time to think things through, either consciously or subconsciously. That's what I was aiming for in Book I. If that didn't get across, then that's because I dropped the ball writing-wise. Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I never claimed I was a good writer. Certainly in Book I he was already fighting a couple of personal demons, in terms of what he was discovering about his relationship with Jenn. She was pushing him, pretty hard too, and in most cases she was the aggressive one. The cards let him explore the active role a bit, but he's not comfortable in that role just yet (that might come, it would be nice), and right now he's also wondering the extent to which his 'activeness' in Book I landed him in the current situation. He's just been smacked by life rather hard, he's reeling, not really knowing where the blow came from, and there's that strangeness about his lack of reaction upon seeing Jenn & Biff together on the bed, which was more pronounced than usual. His reaction: avoid confrontation, and digest. Now he's starting to do something about it. In story time, the above really took place over 2-3 days.
"Remember that what's happening to Jenn is really quite cruel. When she gets her mind back and if she has her memories she's going to be in a very nasty place": That I have absolutely no worry about. And yes, it is cruel. Most MC-based stories at heart play with that cruelty, whether sugar-coated or not. (I know, not *all* of them do. But those that don't tend to play the willing submissive card.)
All that said, though, your last comment about the 'nasty place' does suggest something for the bigger picture of the story that I will need to explore at some point. So thank you.
(and the other responses, cause comments seem to be limited to 4K)
ReplyDelete@met - yeah, that'd be rather hot stuff.
@Astardis - "Jenn being Daniel's again retaining her new personality." Interesting, since her personality hasn't really changed. She's always tended to be the aggressor, and when not she was quite prone to topping from the bottom. A trait she shares with Serena if you think about it-- who has it in spades. And that's not a surprise, since their common denominator is Daniel, who's clearly attracted to that sort of girl.
Interesting discussion, folks. Thanks.
I find that Book 1 has become a little more interesting when you read some Book 2 (knowing that Book 2 is what our author originally wrote first) and reading some of his comments especially the ones above about Jenn's/Serena's and Daniel's personality. Jenn/Serena are pretty dominant (but totally open about it) or have dominant personalities- and both love daniel (to different extents).
ReplyDeleteWhat I find interesting is Jenn still has her brains. When she corrected Biff in Chapter 12- his response was "you don't need brains to suck cock. we'll have to fix that". apparently he left her brains intact when he conditioned her. or is there no way to change that. I kinda like that she and Serena are smart still underneath their conditioning.
This last bit is actually something I've wondered myself. Biff's promise to make Jenn a bimbo didn't seem like an idle one. Has she been altered in this way and we (the readers) just aren't noticing? or has this idea been dropped?
ReplyDeleteBulgroz said: "Interesting, since her personality hasn't really changed."
ReplyDeleteLet me rephrase my statement a bit. Her personality (and Serena's as well) might not have changed but certain parts of it got certainly amplificated by whatever Biff did.
Any kind of inhibition seems to be gone, her willingness to act out Biff's wishes and gaining pleasure from them and her ability to be a sensual and sexual person are certainly magnified.
You decribed the former Jenn as agressive with a tendency to top from the bottom and you made some good examples in part one where she teased Daniel about his voyer tendencies.
My impression of the current one is that she became an active submissive. Her agressiveness seems to be channeled into active participation of her submission, willingly finding new ways to please Biff.
Am I right, or do I read more between the lines than you wanted to put into them?
@ Astraris: Interesting thought. I've never thought of it like that. Jenn is only aggressive if Biff or whoever is controlling her allows it. I don't think its truly submissive, but submission due to mind control/being adjusted. She can be whatever Biff wants. But if he does not give specific instructions I have the feeling her natural personality comes out. For example, Biff told her to get the DVD and give them to the PI along with a BJ. But she made it the experience of the PI's life. Now I am also sure, if a different girl was given the same instructions, she might require more specifics on what to do, but Jenn doesn't as she is extremely sexual.
ReplyDeleteWhoops, sorry, haven't checked my email. And I don't mean to be overly harsh, or bash you by any means. I think there's a lot of potential here and you're putting a lot of thought into this; plus your sentence to sentence writing is miles above most stuff on the web.
ReplyDeleteMy main issue is that it feels like anyone in his situation would immediately make the connection to MD. "Hmm, I saw a previously normal girl appear to enjoy an orgy onstage. I know she was drugged or something of that nature. Now my fiance appears to be a sex fiend for this guy she hates. Seems familiar..."
And I think your description of him is off - passive people don't go looking for missing girls at neo-nazi parties. Plus he was the one who went after Jenn at first. What we've seen of him doesn't suggest he'd sit there while Biff got it on with his fiance.
As for the police involvement - I mean her friends and the rest of the people on campus. A girl disappears one semester and is found to have been part of a drug/prostitute ring. The very next semester another disappears...that's going to cause noise. And why wouldn't Daniel round up her friends and go looking? Not a real criticism, just something to be aware of. You could easily fix it by having it be 3-4 days, I think.
Also, this is unfair, but what are you thoughts on cutting it down? Unfair because we don't know what you plan in the next 5 chapters, but it feels like still having the girls be conditioned/unaware/whatever will make the story slow to a crawl. Also I'm curious, heh.
Yikes, gotta keep up here.
ReplyDelete@met(1), @blahsz - We'll learn more about what Biff did to Jenn in the coming episodes. But indeed, she doesn't seem to be a bimbo.
@met(1) - To be honest, the only thing that I really wrote first was a draft of what is now #12-14, along with some stuff that ended up in #1-2. All of which is pretty unrecognizable now after revisions and editing.
@Astardis - "…but certain parts of it got certainly amplificated by whatever Biff did. Any kind of inhibition seems to be gone, her willingness to act out Biff's wishes and gaining pleasure from them and her ability to be a sensual and sexual person are certainly magnified. […] Am I right, or do I read more between the lines than you wanted to put into them?" That's essentially what's going on, yes. Although, as @met(2) says, I'm not sure I'd call that submission, so much as just having to do what one is told. Again, more about this in coming episodes.
@onceagain - No worries re:email. And overall, you make me think hard about issues, and while I'll moan and groan 'cause frankly I hate thinking sometimes, at the end of the day, it's probably good for me.
ReplyDeleteOf course, that doesn't mean that I'll resist responding to your points :)
"passive people don't go looking for missing girls at neo-nazi parties." Although if you'll recall, he initially said no, and only relented when Radhu said he'd go, and was unmovable about it, and he was worried about his friend. He didn't lead the investigation for MD, and in fact, only tagged along when asked by Serena.
"Plus he was the one who went after Jenn at first." True. I did say he had a tendency to be passive and go with the flow, not that he's a doormat and doesn't get anything done. (Then again, the first time he talked to her he was shot down, and didn't try again until she came back to talk to him first.) There is a distinction, at least in my head. But maybe I got the psychology wrong. Doubtful, but possible.
"What we've seen of him doesn't suggest he'd sit there while Biff got it on with his fiance." Well, there was some smell of that back in #7. And I acknowledged that his reaction when he saw Biff & Jenn together was odd. There is a psychological explanation for it, but we won't find out for a while. I mean, if I talked about it in that episode, then it'd really be coming out of left field. But you're probably right that I could have handled that episode more gracefully. Ah well. I'm still new at this.
"As for the police involvement - I mean her friends and the rest of the people on campus. A girl disappears one semester and is found to have been part of a drug/ prostitute ring." Well, we only have Serena's words on that NADA drug and prostitution ring, right, and what the papers said about it. I mean *we* know it's not true. NADA had nothing to do with MD, short of hiring her as 'entertainment' for one of their parties.
"The very next semester another disappears...that's going to cause noise." Yes, indeed. So why's the police not involved this time around? In fact, where were they last semester for MD? Good questions. Very good questions indeed.
"And why wouldn't Daniel round up her friends and go looking?" True. Where do you look though? (I didn't say yet what happened during that week while the PI was investigating on the side. We can assume Daniel has been looking for her as well -- and not finding her, clearly.)
"Also, this is unfair, but what are you thoughts on cutting it down?" Probably not gonna happen. Still looking at the last episode of Book II sitting at around #25. It shouldn't get too boring until then. (Although I admit that there may be a couple of sex scenes in there that will be purely gratuitous, for our voyeuristic pleasure.)
(Although I admit that there may be a couple of sex scenes in there that will be purely gratuitous, for our voyeuristic pleasure.)
ReplyDeleteGood gracious, don't cut them out. I've got to have my carnal pleasure fix once in a while. :)
Ok, the police is/was a sore point in this, but as you are hinting there might be an explanation coming so I will give you the benefit of the doubt here.
The psychological insight on Daniel is something I can relate to. Hard do imagine how I would have reacted in a similar situation but I tend to be somewhat passive in my reactions, too so some of your descriptions ring true to me.
There are just some inconsistencies with your timeline and Daniel's search. Daniel is quite intelligent, being in college and soon graduating so even if he isn't able connecting the situation concerning MD to what's happening with Jenn, he should be able to connect Jenn to DIK.
So in his persuit for Jenn I would have tried to find Biff as well. One avenue would have led him to DIK and even though he doesn't know any or many members, he DOES know Jackson to a certain extend.
The way you described Jackson, he doesn't seem like the moraly twisted person Biff is and he DOES know Jenn before being taken by Biff.
I have the feeling, that you plan Jackson to be Daniel's entryway into DIK and one step for him to solve this mystery. If that is so or even if it isn't why hasn't Daniel spoken to Jackson already?
I can't imagine Jackson being moraly cold enough to blow off Daniel if he comes to him in search for Biff and Jenn because Jackson is clearly able to connect the dots between Jenn vanishing and Biff's involvment.
@ astardis agree with you about Jackson. otherwise I can't see a reason to introduce him as a nice pledge and his nervous laugh (when he is in the food court with Daniel and serena). i'll have to go back to 7 to read this psych issue that was brought up. totally missed it.
ReplyDelete@Astardis - I was just being obnoxiously facetious. Of course I won't cut the sex scenes. Besides, they're way too much fun to write.
ReplyDeleteI will address the timeline in #15. I'm just paying the price for wanting to be too clever, playing with a nonlinear narrative. That just doesn't work when the updates are monthly. Live and learn. Part of the problem is that I wanted to avoid a boring "and this fruitless search happened for a week." But what you're imagining happened during the week did happen. More in a couple of weeks.
On a different and maybe more important note, I made it a point to sit down and quietly re-read Book II (and man, that was cringe-inducing... way too early for me to re-read myself!), and I finally saw what @onceagain was hammering me on the head about, in #12, about the shift in characterization. And he (and everyone else that pointed it out) was right. It jars, and it's not the way I wanted it to jar. So I'm going to have to go back and rewrite bits of it. Make it smoother. The events won't change (of course), but Daniel's reaction will be closer to the way it was in my head (and the way it was hinted at at the beginning of #13), which amazingly barely made it on paper. I hate doing that, going back over something already written and "published", but this time it's hard to skip over. Sorry about that folks. And thanks for keeping me honest.
And, oh, yes, Jackson has a pretty good idea of what happened, although not the details.